Honda 4514 Riding Lawnmower

[Gwbarm]

It will spark if i feed 12 volts into the coil on the red and black wire at the connector. So i unplug the connector feed 12 volts into the coil for a few seconds try it with it unplugged still no spark, but when i plug the connector back in it will spaark for a little while and then nothing. It seems like im feeding voltage into a capacitor and when it runs out it wont spark anymore. The sppark does look weak but it will run on it for a few seconds If it is powered by the rotating of the magnet then you might be right it is just not generating enough to spark from flakes or rust and corrosion hard to see in there until i get some more access, according to the manual the red and black wire is for safety features only to keep it from sparking.

[Gwbarm]

Dug up a few photos of a 3813 i worked on about 10 years ago. basically the same engine older the newer one got another HP from somewhere.

I had to replace the timing belt and water pump, and starter just down and to the right of the big cam gear is the water pump the flywheel and coil is removed the coil mounts on those 2 nubs just below the cam gear and the charging coils are still in place around the crank.

In the second photo you can see the flywheel laying on the tire. A beautiful little engine but a nightmare to work on and It relys solely on battery power to run dead battery wont run. A plastic cover covers all that up and when reinstalled to the drive shaft  is so close to the firewall you cant get in there. Not sure where the coil is i actually pulled these up to get a closer look at it i had to remove it to get the flywheel off.

Just thought a few photos would give a better idea of what i was working on.

 

 

[Mech]

#31. Yeah well that's real weird, and it's possibly as you say and you are charging a capacitor, that would sort of explain a few sparks for a while before it dies again. The spark is after you've stopped putting the 12v in right ? It's not a spark being produced while the 12v's being applied.. because.. it might be a later model with a 12v ignition.. Perhaps.

If it is a magnet run ignition though, then I'd say it's crook, but I'd always want(as we both do) to confirm that somehow.. I wonder if the dealer can test it for you ?

[Gwbarm]

In fact it wont spark while im feeding it twelve volts and it wont spark until i plug the red black wire back in

[Mech]

Ha..  yeah thanks for that. That makes it even weirder.

[Mech]

And you're sure the service manual is for the right year and stuff..

The wiring diagram and the diagnostic procedure both point to a faulty coil.. Why it would do the things you are describing is hard to fathom.

That kill wire should be open circuit between the wire and earth when it's disconnected from the the ignition coil, and the switch is on and all the requirements for starting and running are satisfied. I'd check it was open circuit and not earthed, and I'd perhaps leave a volt gauge on it while I tried cranking the engine..  Perhaps that combination relay does feed it a bit of voltage to start it.. It's not described in that diagnostic chart, but I'd monitor the kill wire..

[Gwbarm]

Im sure the service manual is right they only made one model 4514 they had other models 4518 3813 etc. The coil is so specific thats why i cant find one. But you are right it doent make sense to me unless it gererates its own power and that part is broken.

Maybe i will understand it better once i get it out so i can take a look.

[Gwbarm]

The service manual has very few tests to do before they say replace the coil in fact they call it the coil pack so there is a lot more going on there than just a coil that works like most coils i have worked on.

I just need to quit talking about it and get out there get it out and replace it, im trying to determine if its easier to pull the engine or the steering wheel and console to get it out, probably about the same amount of work just harder on your back pulling that engine.

I appreciate your help and support Mech! 

[Mech]

All good Brother. 

Most jap machines actually come apart fairly easy. Sometimes we have to pull some body or other auxiliary bits away, but then things mostly come out pretty nicely..  Not that I've worked on one of those. But I'd do as you are and spend a bit of time contemplating which way is going to give the full access. Nothing surer than us thinking it might just slide through the gap.. and then finding we're moving it the wrong direction entirely.. haha.

And yeah, your idea about it not producing it's own power like it should does make sense, that combined with a capacitor in there could explain it to a degree. I'm still stumped about needing the wire back attached again.. That doesn't make sense.

See in the wiring diagram on the coil there is a rectangular box shown in the primary circuit, well in electronic diagrams they use a box like that to represent an integrated circuit. That could have a whole bunch of electronics built into that chip. Since it sparks a bit then the secondary windings are ok, and if it's getting triggered at the right time then I'd assume the primary windings are also ok, and since it's almost certainly the primary windings that produce the power to run the chip there should be the power there, an open circuit shouldn't/wouldn't come right by putting 12v in, and so it really only really leaves an internal open circuit or a faulty component inside the chip(resistor, capacitor,transistor etc). I think..

But...  Weak magnets can cause problems.. Rare these days because we have better magnet materials, but flywheels that sat unused, or worse still removed without a keeper across the magnets used to get weak and then the charging got weak. Maybe slip a bit of steel past the magnets and make sure they are nice and strong..

Ok, that's the musing for the day.. haha. Good luck. I'm going to go throw a rope up a tree to climb up and cut branches off. That's nice and straight forwards. You can wish me luck though, I'm going to be fifteen metres up dangling off a rope wielding a chainsaw..  haha. Life in the country.

[Gwbarm]

Sounds like you need more luck than i do. Climbing a rope and holding on while yielding a chain saw. A man of many talents. Just get a new rope and be careful.

[Mech]

Ha yeah well five minutes later it started raining.. So that was off.

I have just bought a new rope, and I tie on not hold on. I've also just bought(concession to[old] age) two modern rope clamps that work like ratchets up the rope. So much better than my old sliding knots..  haha.

[Gwbarm]

Finally made a decision on what to do with the 4514, pulling the engine didnt appeal to me to replace the coil, i only needed about 1 more inch of clearance to get it out, neither did pulling the steering column and console and many, many other things to get that off. So i decided to cut the battery tray in half or either cut the welds, havent decided yet, which ever works best, that will give me enough clearance. Thats crazy that its welded in there , the one on the 3813 was bolted in. This one will be when i finish.

[Gwbarm]

I did find a used coil on Ebay wasnt sure i was going to be able to find one.. That coil is fairly specific for that engine design and only on the 4514. They sell new if you can find one for 200 i got this one for 30. And after i bought it i found one listed at Parts Tree for 150 we will see how it works out. I should have the old one out by the time it gets here.  

 

[Mech]

Good one. Hope that is the cure.

[Gwbarm]

Well finally got back on the honda today. Couldnt get any of my metal cutting tools in there to cut it out. Got my grinder took the guard off and i could get it in there. It was a challenge the one time i needed a plasma cutter. I have been meaning to get one but it would be used very rarely i dont do that much metal fabricating.

I will say this when honda makes something they make it to last, i thought the battery tray was about rusted out until i started cutting it, very solid. I almost feel badly for hacking it up, but having to pull the engine every time i turned around was getting old. Now i can get to the coil, tighten the timing belt or change the water pump without pulling the engine. Still have to pull it for the starter, frame gets in the way, and replace timing belt, driveshaft has to come out. For a lawnmower it is built as solid as any Quad i have  worked on, very impressed, good job HONDA!

Not pretty but it will be when i finish.

 

Now i have some access room

 

[Mech]

Well it sounds like a good mod then. It's a wonder honda hadn't done that... bolt in battery tray.

If they had, they'd have nice captive or welded in nuts so you just use a socket and extension to whip it out simple as..

Just saying...

[Gwbarm]

Finally got the coil out today the plastic piece still wouldnt separate completely then i found the other bolt that wasnt listed in my manual and i missed it because it was right next to a wire keeper and caked with dirt. Got it so i could check the resistances plug caps were good 10.5 and 9.5 secondary was weak 8.0 ,8.8 is minimum, primary when i first touched it the reading was jumping all around and finally ended up on 000. But the coil looked good no rust or corrosion

Then i noticed this, wouldnt have seen that if i hadnt cut out the battery tray. So that means i have to pull the engine anyway to replace that, some days you just cant win for loosing. But im still having fun. At least im working on something, no quad projects going right now i guess i need to look for another junker.

[Mech]

Ha..  You'll get there.

What is that we're looking at ?

[Gwbarm]

That is the drive shaft, i think i will save that for another day, get it running and driving first.

[Mech]

So a protective cover over the shaft ? With a rusty looking UJ ?

Oh no.. That brown bit's the rusty metal from the hole... Maybe.

Or not.

[Gwbarm]

Actually that is the shaft, the shaft adapter fit from engine to centrifical clutch set up before the transmission. No u joints per say . The adapter has a hard rubber piece that fits together with the shaft not attached in any way, you pull the engine and it comes right off. have a hard rubber piece that fits into the part thats rusted. You might could see it better on the parts tree diagram the second photo. The shaft goes on to number 9 at the engine and number 5 at the transmission. You could probably take #9 3 bolts out and pull the shaft up and out but to do that you have to pull all the body work off. I havent found a shaft anywhere so im not doing any of that right now until i find the part. 

Just thought i would share how it works not a drive shaft like atv but very efficient for what its made to do, but this thing is 35 years old and highly abused, i got it out of a lawnmower junk yard, been looking for one for a while.

 

 

 

[Mech]

Oh ok. So a drive shaft, except a drive shaft that does six times the usual drive shaft revs, and spins the whole time..

Keep your legs away from it.  Haha..

Just kidding. I'm sure it's very safe; Honda made it.

You might get bits for those couplings. They use similar in other things. Over here I'd contact a transmission co, some one that did belts, chains, reduction boxes, driveshafts and parts..  industrial transmission..  for in factories, and auto. Honda might have brought them in like they do with carbs.

 

[Gwbarm]

Got back on the honda yesterday got the new coil installed it is now sparking so i guess the transistors in the original coil was bad. Before i buttoned it all back up i vhecked the timing belt looked good the timing was spot on so all is good. Havent started it yet thought iwould go through the carb first.

Pulled the carb off had a cute little Kei Hin carb on it.

It would have never started the carb soloenoid was stuck it was stuck bad couldnt move it at all tried carb cleaner no luck PB Blaster nothing finally got it freed up with WD40, that amazing stuff, havent been using it much usually use PB Blaster.

Pulled the carb apart bowl was nasty. Main jet was clogged, everything else was fairly clean.

Drug out my ultrasonic cleaner and was looking around for something to use iin it i usually use simple green or royal purple or Dishwashing liquid i didnt have any so looking around i found this

 

Not expecting it to really do anything at all i put a couple of ounces in a quart of 2 quarts of waterand was competely amazed this is right out of the cleaner.

 

Nor bad i finshed up with Berryman the best i have ever used.

I will have to say this is one of the cleanest carbs to come out of the ultrasonic cleaner i will use Mr Clean again

 

[Mech]

Good stuff. The carb looks good. No corrosion's a win,

And I'm glad to hear the new coil was the cure. It pretty much had to be since there's no other parts to the ignition... well there are magnets I guess.

Looking good Gw. Another honda on the...  grass.

[Gwbarm]

Yeah i was a little worried about the replacement coil i could see where the flywheel had been rubbing against it on one side. I usually dont, but i actually got a feeler gauge to make sure i had exact clearance between the coil and flywheel i usually just use a business card. My feeler guages werent long enough to reach both lobes of the coil so i had to do one side at a time and bend it into a curve to use.  

[Mech]

I use two sets of gauges and let the magnets clamp it, then tighten the bolts, then wrestle the feelers out. I've done one pole at a time though and it works fine. This thing's going to run like a dream.. Inline twin, probably sound like a honda twin bike. 180,540 degree firings. 180 degree crank pins.

[Gwbarm]

Got the carb all cleaned up. Pumped fuel through the fuel lines to check good flow. Went to change the fuel filter and drain the tank and clean it out. Got to looking for the fuel filter finally found it . Down below the tank just like everything else a real pain to replace.

 

 

 

There is enough room to get it out the hole but the hose is not long enough to pull the filter out the hole connect the new one and put it back in. There probably was when it was new, a little hose being cut off over the years, but just barely, all original honda hoses, there is access underneath, luckily i had some long handle hose pliers and got it back on. I replaced it with an original honda filter and it just barely goes through the hole with a little force. I really need to run some new hoses to get extra length but i didnt do that today.

 

 

 

[Mech]

Gee.. And I thought honda designed things nicely. Perhaps your hands are too big ? I'm fairly small and my hands only just squeeze in some places. I could see someone with big hands finding a lot of jap stuff a bit cramped.

[Gwbarm]

It is a nice design, you pull the fuel filter out the hole change it put it back, there are spring clips it clips into to hold it solid, the problem was the hose from the fuel pump was too short to let the filter come out the hole maybe shortened sometime in its life or maybe came that way from Honda dont know, but it is well protected. Im fairly good size 6 3  195   big hands and have gotten bigger working on engines all these years.

[Gwbarm]

Getting closer got the battery tray installed back today, it is now removable. I was going to weld it back, but then if i have to remove it again be more difficult.

 

Just like it never happened

 

 

The holdown was missing going to fabricate that clean the rust off and then pressure wash the whole thing.